Writing

[Les Zeppelin]

Selfish bump:

What are the rules on ellipses in prose?

I've written this flash fiction thing which has a very strict 250 word limit, and I've used loads of ellipses as a 'literary device' (for want of a much better phrase).

I've only just realised that MS Word counts two words connected with an ellipsis as one word (e.g. ellipsis rules...as a way to pause in a sentence [the underlined is counted as one word]). When I took these out I was way, way over the limit...

I've edited another version, taken a word-axe to it a bit and replaced ellipses with em dashes & commas to get it down to the requirement.

Could a grammar-head take a look and see if what I've done is actually correct in the first place? link is here (password is N26), a PM back would be cool because no part of it can be 'published' online. If you do though it's no biggie, it hasn't taken up a huge amount of my time...it's only 250 words!

[buildafire]

It looks weird with the words joined...up. Why does it do that?

I think it looks too abstract, like you're using the ellipsis for visual effect rather than to help the sentences work.

[Les Zeppelin]

Does it look better or just as bad in the bottom one?

Cheers Build.

[billydickfingers]

go with the second one.

[buildafire]

It doesn't look any better with hyphens really. Not to me. Why not use full stops? I can't see a place where a full stop wouldn't fit. Then you could mess about with where on the page bits go - it'd give you more choice of how you space sentences and paragraphs.

Fuck knows. Anybody else?

[Les Zeppelin]

Yeah, I guess I was trying to make it read as quickfire and 'panicky' as possible.

Drawing board time.
Cheers.

250 words though...it's fucking hard.

[Tsavo.]

The usage rules for ellipses are pretty contested mate. For instance, people that fall within the prescriptivist camp tend to frown upon using an ellipse to indicate a pause or break in the writer's thought. Their reasoning: traditionally ellipses performed a special function; they signalled that the writer had omitted something, typically from quoted material. The emergence of a new function (using them to merely indicate a break) thus leads to miscues, as it's no longer clear what the ellipse is supposed to be doing in the text.


Alternatively, those within the descriptivist camp will argue that your usage is fine. Their reasoning: almost everyone makes use of ellipses in the fashion you do, and that the hardcore grammar brigade are a bunch of fools preaching to a (rapidly diminishing) choir. The answer to your question, then, basically depends on who's editing your stuff/who you're writing for. Do you know their stance on grammar? As a general rule the older the person the greater the chance they'll be an out-and-out syntax snob.


Also, for what it's worth, I prefer the second piece - at heart because the em dashes make for an easier read. Some might take issue with elements of its grammar. Others, however, will point to the fact that (a) it's fiction and (b) that the fragments and comma splices are justified by your attempt to convey that 'panicky' feeling.


I hope that helps point you in the right direction man.

[Smurph]

Tsavo, that post is a work of art.

Perhaps the the only error in your writing, which I'm still slightly unsure about myself, is the (omitted) comma preceding man/mate. Can someone clear this up? Also, if I'm not mistaken, there should be a space between an ellipsis and the succeeding word, Les.

[Tsavo.]

Cheers Smurph.

And yes, without wishing to get technical, in formal writing I would have definitely used a comma to set off the 'man and 'mate' that cap those clauses. Hence I suppose I would side with your judgement. Perhaps it's just that though - a judgement call.

Certainly, on a forum like this I think most would opt for an open style (the mantra of which is "if in doubt, leave it out"). What's more, using a comma would have emphasised both 'man' and 'mate' alike, which seemed incongruent granted how they're used in speech (i.e., saying 'mate' with emphasis = someone being mardy/sarky, and nobody really places emphasis on 'man' unless they are a thoroughly washed-up - if you can excuse a pun - surfer). So in short, you're 'right' but I thought I'd break the 'rules'.

[Smurph]

Cool. I wasn't entirely sure myself, so I just felt like putting it out there.

It'd be cool if some genius went about creating a reliable online-portal for which one could check the rules of writing. I realise there are all sorts of variables such as colloquialisms, poetic licence and so forth that render a sentence "right" or "wrong" before even the structuring is dissected, but nevertheless, da txt generayshun/nextman needs some sort of template. It'd be a difficult task, but hopefully it's feasible.

I realise there are these things called schools which are intended to teach us the foundations and substitute for what I have proposed above, but most of the teachers I ever had weren't to be trusted spelling their name. It'll be really interesting to see the standard of teaching in years to come after all the supposed benefits of things like google, wikipedia, etc.

[Tsavo.]

Yeah, that would be handy. If you're interested, Garner's Modern American Usage is, to my mind, the best book for an overview of the language right now. (That it's American usage makes little difference.) Amongst those that care, he's often regarded as the authority.

http://www.vice.com/read/bryan-garner-641-v17n12

And I hear what you're saying about the general lack of literacy (in any higher sense of the word) that's so prevalent amongst my generation. I finished up at a good secondary school a few years ago and, despite studying English through sixth-form, was taught nothing beyond the bare nuts and bolts of the English language. No one cares anymore.

For Les, ellipses are just three periods with spaces in between. Strict usage would have you leave a space between each period, a space before the proceeding word, and a space after the word the introduces the ellipse, e.g., "Nabokov's writing . . . often featured opaque references to his youth in Russia . . . ." The last period there is just your normal period ending the sentence.

Hope that helps.

[wayoutskates]

Also, if I'm not mistaken, there should be a space between an ellipsis and the succeeding word, Les.

that was the one piece of knowledge i was going to throw into this - yes, an ellipsis should be followed by a space, so that will answer your issue on the word count

and tsavo, post more

edit - beaten to it anyway. *back into useless mode*

[blindollie softrock]

Celine (my fav author) absolutely rinses them and people hate him for it.

"To readers unfamiliar with Céline’s style, the three dots can be a point of contention. Unlike English, where the ellipses are seen as pauses and breaks, the French read it in the opposite manner. The three dots function as a means to push the reader forward. As Céline’s later works testify, he pushes the forward momentum of the reader to near delirium, practically sacrificing continuity and comprehensibility."

(from- http://driftlessareareview.com/2011/...dinand-celine/)

peace

[Les Zeppelin]

The usage rules for ellipses are pretty contested mate. For instance, people that fall within the prescriptivist camp tend to frown upon using an ellipse to indicate a pause or break in the writer's thought. Their reasoning: traditionally ellipses performed a special function; they signalled that the writer had omitted something, typically from quoted material. The emergence of a new function (using them to merely indicate a break) thus leads to miscues, as it's no longer clear what the ellipse is supposed to be doing in the text.


Alternatively, those within the descriptivist camp will argue that your usage is fine. Their reasoning: almost everyone makes use of ellipses in the fashion you do, and that the hardcore grammar brigade are a bunch of fools preaching to a (rapidly diminishing) choir. The answer to your question, then, basically depends on who's editing your stuff/who you're writing for. Do you know their stance on grammar? As a general rule the older the person the greater the chance they'll be an out-and-out syntax snob.


Also, for what it's worth, I prefer the second piece - at heart because the em dashes make for an easier read. Some might take issue with elements of its grammar. Others, however, will point to the fact that (a) it's fiction and (b) that the fragments and comma splices are justified by your attempt to convey that 'panicky' feeling.


I hope that helps point you in the right direction man.

Amazing replies.

Thanks to everyone on here. I love this forum.

Tsavo ... you need to post more (see what I did there ).

Can I ask, do you write yourself?

My memories of A-Level English are mainly struggling to read the first & last 5 chapters of Pride & Prejudice whilst being high as a kite.

[Mad Max]

that was the one piece of knowledge i was going to throw into this - yes, an ellipsis should be followed by a space, so that will answer your issue on the word count

and tsavo, post more

edit - beaten to it anyway. *back into useless mode*

Wayout beat me to it.
Yes, use a space.