View Poll Results: In or Out

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80. You may not vote on this poll
  • Stay put

    71 88.75%
  • Fuck outta here

    9 11.25%
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Thread: EU: In or Out?

  1. #31
    Moderator buildafire's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU: In or Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mush View Post
    Am I right in remembering that they even lowered the voting age for the Scottish referendum?? Talk about wanting the uninformed and less worldly wise to vote.
    "Hey kids, we're your friends, and we're the cool guys! We trust you to vote, although you don't own (or rent) homes, pay taxes, know anything about the cost of North Sea oil, worry about pensions or work full time jobs. Now, who you gonna vote for? Remember, we're your friends!"

    Alex Salmond actually said those exact words.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: EU: In or Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by SotonJon View Post
    Stay in mate. If we leave we claw back contributions but we would then have to pay a tariff to trade in the common market which wouldn't be much less than what we're paying now (see Norway, Switzerland). We already opted out of Schengen so we don't have unrestricted movement of people like other countries within the EU. Many foreign companies outside of the EU invest in the UK partly because it is foot-in-the-door for the European market (See Nissan). Some have threatened to cut investment if Britain leaves the EU. There is nothing stopping us from negotiating trade deals with other countries while remaining with the EU. Look at how many delegations have gone to China and India in the past few years by Osbourne et al to talk up British business. The EU provides protections on labour rights, discrimination, environmental laws. Being a member makes it easier to address shared issues such as terrorism, trafficking, refugees, climate change where a coordinated effort is more likely yield results. Lastly what is supposed to happen to the millions of British citizens living in the EU and the millions of EU citizens living in the UK? Are they just supposed to return to their country of origin or become citizens of their adopted country? There is no contingency plan or strategy for a leave vote. It is like quitting your job and then having to renegotiate a role with your old employer while simultaneously looking elsewhere. If there were preparations and strong trade relationships in other parts it might make sense but 40% of the UK's trade is with other EU countries so it's like shooting yourself in the foot to leave a trading bloc with which you do the majority of your trade. Anyway, rant over. That's my two cents/pence
    Agree with this.

    I watched Paxman's program the other day and was pretty appalled with the bias and general ignorance of his journalism. Playing up to the fact that British people don't really pay enough attention to the role the European institutions play and what it really means on a global scale to be apart of the Union.

    If you ask me, Cameron's referendum was a spur of the moment idea that has got him into hot water. I don't even understand where he stands on the question?

    Anyway, I am a pure product of Europe seeing as I lived in France as a teenager, moved back to the UK for uni and early work, and then moved to Belgium for professional work. My Wife is French and my son was born in Belgium. I still know who Dot Cotton is and I eat marmite. Imagine if all I had on my life CV was those two last points...
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  3. #33
    Übermensch thecmac's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU: In or Out?

    phuck yo yoorp
    Quote Originally Posted by wayoutskates View Post
    agreed. there's way worse trousers victims out there. at least he's not using his trousers to hide the fact that he sucks, like a lot of others

  4. #34
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    Default Re: EU: In or Out?

    Re: Nicky Morgan- To me personally I feel that democracy is being lost, a lot of scandals that could out a few tory mps/scandals are being blocked or covered up before they can even reach the media- not even gonna open the whole bias media can of worms, but in that respect, its good to see the forced academisation of schools be completely tore into by the teachers and professionals involved. It makes me curious though, as to how much of a movement is needed to oppose and gain leverage for these to happen. For example, Jeremy Hunt and the junior doctors, its not like enough uproar was created or professional opinion against Hunt, it literally to a lot of us seemed like stubborn behaviour from Hunt in an attempt to not 'stand down' or let his guard down, show that he's being defeated. Ive read a lot before about how one of the main Conservative traits that has never changed through history is the fact that they don't like to go back on previous decisions or apologise/admit wrong because of how it makes them seem vulnerable, they like the fact that power can be held by not allowing those underneath to see weakness in their system or any chance to be able to oppose what they do. Which is ridiculously Orwellian. I guess my point is, do people really believe that democracy is alive? Obviously the media can play a large roll in this debate and how important I'm not too sure, however obviously things like the Tory Election Expenses scandal can only have a large portion of opposition if it ws given the right amount of media coverage, in which would make people revolt. I just feel that it seems like democracy on the outside, yet there is so much control over what people have the right to see and understand and be presented with clear information that those in power will always be able to manipulate how the general public/professionals relating to these aspects feel to an extent. For example, a huge amount of petitions have just been ignored, case in hand- Fracking in Yorkshire, which is still going ahead despite a 131:1 or something equally as ridiculous opposition against it.

    In terms of the EU debate, I agree in a way with what Volst says, that certain decisions like this are made so unclear to average johnny who does't rely delve into politics, however to suggest further manipulating who can and can't vote in matters like this is something I feel would only be turning a step in a darker path of censorship, and complete inequality and elitist control, would only be a few years until average johnny thinks he'll never vote because 'the smart mps know about these issues and I don't leaving everything in the hands of the tories, or at least, the hands of those that can get away with their own agendas masked in politics that these people barely understand anyway. Personally from my knowledge of the EU debate, it seems like we would lose a fuck load of workers rights, female rights, and more very good structures that we have in place to protect us as individuals from the overruling powers that we all know can't be trusted. Are there eurosceptics that aren't right wingers or purely motivated by money? Probably yes, but i'm yet to see an argument for leaving that doesn't just seem selfish.
    / / /

  5. #35
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    Default Re: EU: In or Out?

    Virgin train wifi won't let me quote but apologies if my initial response came across like that wayout, it was late and I was hoping this thread would pick up so I was kind of devil's advocating a bit. Wasn't intended to sound patronising.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: EU: In or Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by volstenhulme View Post
    I don't think I, or anyone else, should be allowed to vote on this. There should never have been the chance of a referendum.

    Quoting working again.
    this is interesting Volst as that makes much more sense to me.
    lets be clear - Cameron 'allowed' this referendum to happen precisely because of the pro/anti Europe split within his own party (which nearly destroyed it last time) and also because a new party advocating leaving the EU got 4 million votes in the last General Election but only ended up with 1 seat because of the first past the post system.
    cameron and the 'pro-EU' Tories (possibly substitute that with the 'pro globalist/corpo lobbyist Tories) had no choice but to grant the referendum because of that really.

    weirdly there's a strong centre left and far left argument against the EU as well, although you wouldn't think so from the coverage.
    Corbyn himself was openly anti-EU in the 80s.
    If you think about it, the socialist argument against it is fairly obvious.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: EU: In or Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by blinky View Post
    to suggest further manipulating who can and can't vote in matters like this is something I feel would only be turning a step in a darker path of censorship, and complete inequality and elitist control,
    They tried to deny any UK citizen living in Europe for more than 5 years the right to vote in this referendum. This was then deemed ridiculous and pushed up to 15 years.
    It's like let's ask British people what they think of Europe but not include British people who actually live in Europe. D'oh!
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  8. #38
    Moderator buildafire's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU: In or Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Max View Post
    They tried to deny any UK citizen living in Europe for more than 5 years the right to vote in this referendum. This was then deemed ridiculous and pushed up to 15 years.
    It's like let's ask British people what they think of Europe but not include British people who actually live in Europe. D'oh!
    The people I know who have moved away from Scotland were definitely the most vocally 'Yes' during the run up to the independence referendum. Less to lose, I suppose.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: EU: In or Out?

    I'm away on voting day so posting my vote to stay.
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  10. #40
    Ultra King Mush's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU: In or Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by hugo View Post
    I'm away on voting day so posting my vote to stay.
    Holiday in somewhere in Europe per chance??
    Skating on roids + Lance Mountain swearing and talking about how fit he is?? Really weird

  11. #41
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    Default Re: EU: In or Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by buildafire View Post
    The people I know who have moved away from Scotland were definitely the most vocally 'Yesh' during the run up to the independence referendum. Less to lose, I suppose.
    FTFY


  12. #42
    Moderator buildafire's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU: In or Out?

    Haha! Good example.

  13. #43
    Übermensch Dent Face's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU: In or Out?

    Personally, I think the way in which both sides in the debate have presented their case is far too sensationalist. Cameron with his WW3 claims and Johnson with his Hitler comparisons.

    It's interesting, as anon says, about the left being far less vocal. I put that down to Corbyn's leadership. Unfortunately, the opposition haven't really got their act together in criticising the Tories. The Tories are split, now would be a great chance to capitalise. But then maybe Labour's split as well between the anti-semites and the non anti-semites, lolz.

    So if maybe both parties are split, the electorate will begin to see how ineffective the political system in Britain is. Maybe support for more populist parties will grow. Maybe it'll be UKIP vs the Greens at some point. But probably not.

  14. #44
    Moderator ciaran's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU: In or Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by pervert View Post
    voting in. vote leave campaign is a load of shite. it seems as though everyone's just forgotten that it's not (insert relevant year where being racist was apparently acceptable) and being racist is really not fucking safe obviously. whole campaign is basically based on blokes in pubs plucking some brexit 'facts' from the sun and telling their mate 'that they work hard though'.

    fuck boris too the complete cunt

    sure people on facebook have probs seen it by now, the dude writes like a bit of a chief but it's still a good read - https://www.facebook.com/georgeyb91/...56954125750504
    haha, good link that, thanks.

    Savage posts from Soton John and Blinky, props.

    Random thoughts -
    Nope, democracy in the UK has never been alive. There's no written consitution, rampant gerrymandering by the current Tory government, no proportional representation, mass official online petitions are routinely ignored, the landed gentry actively control farming on all levels, an in-built deference to a monarchy/class system where plebs should know their place, etc. Or just where the vast majority of the political class here in are just in it for the money and self gain, like Orwell's pigs

    I'll be voting to stay in, obviously being from Ireland, with a Finnish girlfriend and our son has a UK passport, on a personal level, things could get sticky for us here should the rest of the turkeys vote for Christmas.

    The EU dictates that we all get holiday pay, parental leave and sick pay, along with putting down the rules governing workplace health and safety, food regulations, financial controls, environmental safeguards and the like.

    Structural funds benefit and invest in areas like Cornwall, west Wales, the Highlands, etc., or you'll just see London hoover up more and more funds, while not sustaining itself on a fundamental base level.

    All those big businesses who are shouting that we've got to leave the EU stand to reap the financial rewards by gradually eroding the same work, food, health & environmental rules already in place, which they like to refer to as red tape. In their view, it's pointless beauracracy which hampers their profits. Holiday pay would be gradually cut back, parental leave would go, along with sick pay, the NHS, education, all those other regulations will be written more often by the companies they're supposed to control.

    All over the EU, university/third level fees have remained relatively cheap or free. In Germany, they've eliminated uni fees altogether; in Finland, students are paid to stay in uni. The overall idea being that although this costs x amount now, future earnings & spending by the same people aren't hampered by a millstone of £40,000 in student loans.

    The UK already has a disproportionate number of offshore tax havens like Bermuda, Virgin Islands, Channel Islands, etc. and there is zero chance that these will be reined in without help, or direction from the EU.

    The Brexit camp often try to draw parallels with Norway and Switzerland - the UK has nothing near the amount of Norwegian natural reserves (wind, tidal along with the obvious oil and gas), and Switzerland keeps all the world's cash. Both countries also have much smaller populations and a far deeper sense of a democratic process than here.

    Immigration doesn't even come into it, that's such a straw man argument. Migrants, myself included, do not cost the taxpayer, as they generally arrive already educated and trained (no cost to the education system or NHS growing up), have no friends or family to support them if there's no work, have a huge incentive to work, thrive and progress and rarely, if ever, fall back on dole and welfare benefits. In the majority of cases, migrant workers stay for a number of years, then move back home, having paid income tax, VAT, etc. Both sides benefit.

    Ultimately, if the UK leaves the EU, it'll be the beginning of a slow end as I see it. I'm still mulling over what I can do, whether it's apply for a pair of UK passports, or take all that cash we've been saving for a house and use it to set ourselves up in Germany or something. No idea, but I don't want my hand forced on this.

  15. #45
    Übermensch jono9981's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU: In or Out?

    School academisation was coming for before Nicky Morgan expertly made everyone see it as the worst idea in the world, especially in catholic schools and such. Those authorities are not flapping about trying to figure out what to do now that everyone who hadn't previously noticed thinks its stupid.

    It's a shame that the EU debate among the general public has essentially boiled down to a row between people shouting "control our borders" and people who like being friendly and as such have decided to stay. Someone in the leave campaign office must be swearing into their 104th coffee of the day about their figureheads being such cunts. Put Boris and Goves face on a free blowjobs for all scheme and people will still hate it.

    I'm voting in, largely because I see most of the reasons to leave being falsehoods or mcguffins. I'm happy to admit that I haven't really done my research though. The situation of the general public voting on something that requires a level of scholarly intervention beyond having access to a balanced source of general news reporting is another debate altogether.

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