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Thread: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymity View Post
    If I move to let's say Indonesia and refuse to respect religious customs - what do you think will happen to me?
    Ha yeah true, maybe cynical but I just struggle to see a Western government actually going through with something like this.

    Also interesting how he really doesn't talk about media shaping narratives, 'fake news', social media and the like

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven_Hamilton View Post
    Ha yeah true, maybe cynical but I just struggle to see a Western government actually going through with something like this.
    Sadly, I think the alternative to doing nothing is most probably going to be more Viktor Orbans etc and a swing to a hard right not seen in the last 5/6 decades.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven_Hamilton View Post

    Also interesting how he really doesn't talk about media shaping narratives, 'fake news', social media and the like
    He does kinda mention that, in so far as his discussion re the mechanics of Trump getting elected.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymity View Post
    He does kinda mention that, in so far as his discussion re the mechanics of Trump getting elected.
    Kinda indirectly, I don't know I was expecting social media 'spheres' to be mentioned far more than they actually are

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymity View Post
    Sadly, I think the alternative to doing nothing is most probably going to be more Viktor Orbans etc and a swing to a hard right not seen in the last 5/6 decades.
    Yeah I see that more likely to happen than what is being proposed in this essay

    What was it in the essay that you didn't agre with? (you said in your opening post you're not sure how much you agree with)

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven_Hamilton View Post
    Yeah I see that more likely to happen than what is being proposed in this essay

    What was it in the essay that you didn't agre with? (you said in your opening post you're not sure how much you agree with)
    Some of the stuff you're flagging up about the reality of any Western govt (outside the US) actually admitting that their flirtation with vaguely defined 'multiculturalism' might've been a naive (but huge) mistake.

    Things like Merkel openly stating that 'Multiculturalism has utterly failed' in 2010 - see here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...uralism-failed

    Then going on to do what she did by revoking the Dublin agreement a couple of years later genuinely makes me wonder about the real motives at work here.

    The above is one example of why I don't agree with what Fukuyama is saying, even though I'd like it to be the solution.


    Additionally, I'm not sure I can see the current 'Left' abandoning their contemporary over emphasis on Identity Politics in favour of a return to a more all-encompassing old style Left social justice agenda - thus, we're probably all fucked.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymity View Post
    Additionally, I'm not sure I can see the current 'Left' abandoning their contemporary over emphasis on Identity Politics in favour of a return to a more all-encompassing old stye Left social justice agenda - thus, we're probably all fucked.
    Yeah (sadly) agree. Feel like a lot of younger (18-30ish) people strongly identifying with and vocalising their support of the left are fairly privileged people who are on the left largely because of the Identity politics side rather than the social justice side of things (despite outwardly saying otherwise) so moving forward I think a shift back to the old style would possibly alienate these younger voters.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven_Hamilton View Post
    Yeah (sadly) agree. Feel like a lot of younger (18-30ish) people strongly identifying with and vocalising their support of the left are fairly privileged people who are on the left largely because of the Identity politics side rather than the social justice side of things (despite outwardly saying otherwise) so moving forward I think a shift back to the old style would possibly alienate these younger voters.
    Maybe it would but Labour needs to re-engage with their traditional voter block who have clearly fucked them off otherwise they'd be doing better in the polls against possibly the shittest Conservative goverment in living history.

    Shouting "Oh, oh Jeremy Corbyn" at Glastonbury does absolutely fuck all to engage the silent majority of working class/middle class ex-Labour supporters who either don't vote now, vote for right-leaning parties, or like me, vote tactically in local elections, and struggle to know who to vote for nationally.

    All the anti Corbyn venom in the media is terrible and he's clearly a decent enough bloke but the whole Momentum shite and some of the recent appointments his cabinet have made just defy any logic and hand the narrative to the likes of the Mail/Express etc.
    Unless of course, as some people are suggesting, Labour don't actually want to win pre-Brexit because then they'll get blamed for it.
    The whole thing is a fucking disgrace - all the parties are shit.


    Anyway - that's more Uk-centic than this thread should be so...

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymity View Post

    Things like Merkel openly stating that 'Multiculturalism has utterly failed' in 2010 - see here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...uralism-failed

    Then going on to do what she did by revoking the Dublin agreement a couple of years later genuinely makes me wonder about the real motives at work here.
    It's almost as if she did everything she could to inflame that situation and make it worse and surprise, surprise it has resulted with the AfD now making up the largest opposition group.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by ihatethegeneralpublic View Post
    It's almost as if she did everything she could to inflame that situation and make it worse and surprise, surprise it has resulted with the AfD now making up the largest opposition group.
    Yeah - exactly my point.
    I'm tin foil inclined anyway but that one really activates my almonds so to speak.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics

    Really interesting read, thanks!

    I have to agree with Haven in saying that he doesn't offer much in terms of practical solutions. The reason identity politics has surfaced so strongly is precisely because of the meta-narratives of marxism, feminism, etc. that do not speak properly for everyone; I don't see how they can. But I do agree that we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater as far as Marxism goes. Neo-liberalism has pretty much won out everywhere.

    One thing I'd like to have seen discussed is the necessary erasure that comes with assimilation. It's not addressed in the article.

    I also think that there should have been a discussion about different types of migration; it's all lumped together in the discussion and doesn't take into account the responsibilities of nations who have made interventions that have directly or indirectly led to migration and the idea of national responsibility.

    I question the concept of a national credal system (though I recognise he's not talking about adherence to a religious order).

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics



    This seems fairly relevant.

    The free speech thing doesn't seem so much of a grey area to me though, expressing an opinion that may be unacceptable is different to deliberately setting out to offend someone because they are different to you in some way.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymity View Post
    You can read the full text here: Against Identity Politics
    Hard to disagree with a lot of that... Not sure on the solutions though. Enforced integration... and I'm not sold on 'national service' (I know its non military - at first anyway)

    "So there is nothing wrong with identity politics as such; it is a natural and inevitableresponse to injustice. But the tendency of identity politics to focus on cultural issues hasdiverted energy and attention away from serious thinking on the part of progressives abouthow to reverse the 30-year trend in most liberal democracies toward greatersocioeconomic inequality. It is easier to argue over cultural issues than it is to changepolicies, easier to include female and minority authors in college curricula than to increasethe incomes and expand the opportunities of women and minorities outside the ivorytower. What is more, many of the constituencies that have been the focus of recentcampaigns driven by identity politics, such as female executives in Silicon Valley andfemale Hollywood stars, are near the top of the income distribution. Helping them achievegreater equality is a good thing, but it will do little to address the glaring disparitiesbetween the top one percent of earners and everyone else.

    Today’s left-wing identity politics also diverts attention from larger groups whose seriousproblems have been ignored. Until recently, activists on the left had little to say about theburgeoning opioid crisis or the fate of children growing up in impoverished single-parent families in the rural United States. And the Democrats have put forward no ambitiousstrategies to deal with the potentially immense job losses that will accompany advancingautomation or the income disparities that technology may bring to all Americans."

    Seems pretty true.

  13. #28
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    Default Re: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics

    Yeah that part you quoted was probably what rang the most true to me too

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics

    Related - interesting Podcast on the above topic with Fukuyama and various others.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000qtr

  15. #30
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    Default Re: Francis Fukuyama - Against Identity Politics

    Just listened to that, very interesting and good to hear some informed debate on the subject as opposed to the usual rubbish you hear in the media or on Twitter.

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